After all, hundreds of millions of people claim some kind
of experience with the christian god, so do disbelievers
discredit all of those experiences?

Well, to that logic, I would have to reply that if a christian
is referring to experiences (which are, in fact, nothing
more than feelings), those feelings (experiences) are
better understood as emotions and thoughts flowing from
those emotions rather than real and tangible contact with
something that is real and existentially verifiable.

If christians are referring to feelings, as invoked by thoughts
directed towards an imaginary being that is treated as the
be-all end-all of life by many promoting that concept, yep,
that ideology is a self-perpetuating meme simply because
out of all the myths passed on from parents to children,
that one is unique in that

1) it's given credit, with straight faces in all seriousness
by folks in authority, as being the kingpin in the area of
all unknowns, the creator of everything, as well as being
given credit for being a watcher, supporter of believers,
doomer of naysayers, answerer of worthy prayers,
demander of worship, and yes, all these accolades
are made with straight faces in all seriousness by folks
in authority,

2) it promises all good,

3) it threatens with power,

4) it promises immortality,

5) it threatens with hell and damnation if you don't
follow it,

6) it's promoted in large social structures also used
for friendships / contact with lovers-sexual partners
and promotion of financial inter-dependence, and it's
intertwined with social goings on within secular myths,
making it difficult to separate the secular from the
religious (especially during Easter and Christmas in
western cultures),

7) it's deviously called Truth and most people are quite
confused by the difference between Truth and truth,

8) it's promoted by an ancient book of suspension of
doubt from which people in authority pick and choose
whatever they like in order to continue human dependence
on it,

9) it's promoted in large buildings with requirements for
attendance, submission, kneeling, canting, singing, sitting
passively while some authority figure says whatever he
wants regarding invisible beings/concepts being real, with
no skepticism, no criticism, no doubt, no rational means,
no logical means of dealing with that brainwashing modality
other than the thoughts you're able to construct during and
after the process ...

these large buildings are also used for mating rituals (mar-
riage) and death rituals (funerals) as well as a litany of
other belief-promoting adventures based on the proclivities
of the particular faiths using the large buildings which, de-
spite their physical nature, are treated as "holy/blessed by
some of the imaginary beings" by folks in authority with
straight faces in all seriousness,

10) it is never revealed as a myth by most parents simply
because most parents were seduced into the myth in their
childhood via methods 1 to 9 above and simply follow
the pattern of brainwashing to their children who continue
the process when they grow up ...

and so on and so forth ...

- - -

Did present-day followers create these myths?

No, present-day followers did not create most of these
myths. Most were brainwashed into it - see above.

Creating super-beings was a common practice in the
days in which the christian super-beings were created.

There are over 1,800 super-being/deity/devil/demon
myths (that we know of), created by humans all over
the world, almost all of them of ancient vintage/origins
in early human cultures.

Joseph Smith, along with a few others, are part of the
myth-promoting agents of the last 200 years, yet the
substantial underpinnings of their myths were laid down
by the ancients thousands of years ago ...

Church of Christ (founded over 190 years ago)

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints - Mormons (founded over 160 years ago)

Seventh-Day Adventists (founded almost 140 years ago)

Bahai Faith (founded over 130 years ago by Mirza Hosein)

Christian Science (founded over 130 years ago)

Salvation Army (founded over 130 years ago)

Jehovah's Witnesses (founded over 100 years ago)

Pentecostal Churches-Charismatic Renewal
(founded almost 100 years ago)

Rastafarianism (founded over 70 years ago by
Marcus Garvey's "back to Africa" movement)

Unification Church (founded over 40 years
ago by Sun Myung Moon)

- - -

Imaginary beings were really big as the be-all end-all
explanation for all unknowns prior to the advent of
non-imaginary being explanations which has really
only taken hold in the last 200 years, due to scientific
advances in natural explanations of our natural world.

Why were super-beings created/promoted? It was
the way to gain power, gain control, maintain power,
maintain control, explain unknowns, and act out any
and all desires one wished, simply by invoking the
imaginary super-beings as your source of support
or as the opponent to be overcome.

Even in the modern age, leaders of countries are not
hesitant to invoke or ask the support of the favorite
imaginary being of the culture in which they find
themselves in order to impress the citizens under
their authority.

- - -

Do disbelievers have hope for something outside
our natural experiences in a natural world? Some do.
I, for example, am deeply into the infinite and into
the natural and into our probe of all that is, and therein
resides my hope.

- - -

Is there anything similar to the christian god belief system,
using items 1 to 10 above as the basis for their belief in
imaginary beings, with as much success as the christian
belief system has had?

Yes.

Think of women in Islamic countries, for example. Same
problems as iterated in 1 to 10 above (and more due to
the combining of church and state in Islamic countries
and the anti-female nature of the Islamic myths). I don't
know how women in Islamic countries would be able to
escape their slavery to Allah / to men without risking
severe and potentially fatal punishment.

Of course, christians must understand that children are a
captive audience in all countries and are totally dependent
on their parents for their concepts of the world and their
view of what life is ... therefore, even in the "free" U.S. of
A., children raised under a Muslim roof will likely become,
you guessed it, Muslim, simply because of items 1 to 10
above -and- the unenlightened approach, as of yet, of
most parents in America of failing to present a broad array
of views, including naturalistic ones, for their children to
consider during their vulnerable parent-dependent stage.

Science and the christian god - good partners? I think
not, not only because of the unscientific nature of the
christian myths, but also because of basic natural laws
which run counter to the fundamental aspects of the
christian faith.

For example, can christians explain for me how disease
and harm to children fits into the christian god scene?

The christian god, you know, the supposedly omniscient
and omnipotent master of the universe, unable or unwilling
to protect innocent children. A christian god that acts
powerless and invisible and impotent or evil when it
comes to the welfare of human children (let's not even
begin to ponder the horrors of the natural world when
it comes to non-human children, just human children
I'm talking here).

Science requires an open mind. Religion requires a closed
mind, or else one risks loss of faith in invisible beings.

Do christians believe in Allah?

Do christians believe in Shiva?

Do christians believe in Satan?

Do christians believe in Angels?

Do christians believe in the god-man known as Dionysus?

Is christian belief or disbelief in these things any different
from christian belief in the christian god or the christian
savior? Ponder the *logical* process involved in accepting
some imaginary beings and rejecting others.

For a christian, saying you experienced god is just like
imagining it unless a christian can explain it in a way that
reveals it to be real rather than imaginary. Feelings are
real, feelings caused by belief in causes, people, states
of being, imaginary beings, those are real.

It's when you get past the feelings and delve into the
causes, people, states of being, imaginary beings, that's
when you get into the psychology of the matter and
that's when you ascertain the validity or lack thereof of
the entities christians' feelings are directed towards.

In the case of christians, we're discussing christian
feelings (sometimes referred to by christians as personal
experiences) towards the imaginary being called the
christian god and/or the christian christ and or the
christian holy spirit.

Feelings need not be based on valid entities but are
instead based on a wide variety of factors, with items
1 to 10 at the beginning of this post being critical in
christian feelings towards the imaginary beings called
the christian god, the christian christ, and the christian
holy spirit.

If the christian god were real, rather than imaginary,
I have no doubt that christians would be able to make
a strong case for it.

Since the christian god is imaginary, therein lies the fatal
christian flaw. Christians can't imagine it into being. It
counters the laws of physics. Trust me, if god were real
and was in anyway pro-human, god would show himself,
god would lay a platinum manifest of his every want, need,
desire, on every human's doorstep, god would protect and
nurture children, god would birth us into heaven and there
would be no torment/silent test treatment.

The fact is, god, every god, all gods, exist in one place
and one place only, the human mind. I'm open to any
*evidence* christians have that I'm wrong, but please do
understand that your feelings are not evidential, with all
due respect, they're delusional as to what they're directed
towards (but they're real feelings), based on items 1 to 10
above and I don't hold that against christians as I love all
believers in addition to loving disbelievers, doubters, dis-
tancers, and those unwilling to take a stand on imaginary
super-beings.

Logic, reason, rationality, and open-minded search for truth
prevent me from treating a methodology of inducing feelings
(see items 1 to 10 above) as a demonstration that those
feelings are in fact based on a surreal something invisible
out there somewhere everywhere defying the laws of physics
and acting as if it's nothing except to a few pre-scientific
humans where it was real, maybe, or was it myth? When
you *think* about it, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Did humans create gods or did gods create humans?

If christians like, exclusive of all other explanations, the
christian god creating humans concept, christians must
be well aware that the over 1,800 other gods/deities/devils/
demons were created by humans and christians should
ask themselves, "What makes the christian god/devil
concept, developed by pre-scientific humans without a
clue, one of a multitude of super-deity things created in
cultures of the time, what makes that christian god
better/truer than the others?"

If christians understand that it's based on items 1 to 10
above and has nothing whatsoever to do with reality,
now we're getting somewhere.

If christians want to cling to the Jesus myth as being
somehow the differentiator of the christian god story,
understand the mythical origins of the christ stories and
get back to me if you're in need of details on criticisms
of the god-man myths.

Check out Zoroaster, *original* Gnosticism, Paganism,
Egyptian deities, and while you're at it, as for solid
evidence that the Hebrews/Jewish deity scene was late
in the game when it comes to god and authoritarianism,
check out the stele of the Hammurabi Law Code and
the original Vedic manuscripts.

- - -